What Fascinates Sol Rashidi?

In this episode, Sol talks to Bobby about the challenges of pushing AI projects to full-scale adoption, the reality of leading data transformations in large organizations and why embracing a "rogue" mindset is essential for leadership.

Key Moments in the Conversation

0:00 From Professional Rugby to Data & AI
‍8:15 The Reality of Being Chief AI Officer
‍16:30 Why AI POCs Struggle to Reach Full Adoption
‍24:45 Balancing the Art of the Possible with the Art of the Practical
‍32:20 Intellectual Atrophy and AI’s Impact on Workforce Readiness
‍40:10 Going Rogue

Bobby: Welcome to Loka's Podcast, What Fascinates You?, conversations with entrepreneurs, engineers and visionaries who are bringing innovations to life. I'm your host, Bobby Mukherjee. Today, I’m talking with an incredible guest, Sol Rashidi. Sol has built a career at the intersection of data, AI and enterprise strategy, holding C-level roles at companies like Sony Music, Merck and Estee Lauder. She was one of the first enterprise Chief AI Officers, long before most companies even knew they needed one. Now at Amazon, she's shaping the future of AI adoption while continuing to share her expertise through speaking, writing and advising. We had a fantastic conversation about AI, leadership and what it really takes to turn proof-of-concepts into scalable enterprise solutions.

Bobby: I'm so glad we're able to finally make this happen and get this podcast recording going. As is typical fashion for us, we typically have our guests introduce themselves. So I'll hand the mic over to you. 

Sol: Well, thank you. First and foremost I really appreciate you having me on the podcast, Bobby. You and I have been trying to coordinate this for quite some time, but our fun little schedules always seem to be getting in the way. But my name is Sol Rashidi. I've been in the data space, data processing, since the late ‘90s. I actually accidentally got into it. I was a professional rugby player. And then as I aged, my running joke was I had to hang up my cleats and actually get a real job because I couldn't just sleep on futons and eat ramen noodles all day long.

And my first gig was really to be a data engineer. And I had a variety of roles since then. And things just kind of Christmas treed this way up. I realized that I am by no means an awesome coder. I cannot write production-ready code whatsoever, but I can hack my way through things, or used to. But I randomly fell into the MDM space of all things, and I started doing these major, monolithic SAP migrations.

You want to get to know data, do ERP migrations. And I built a reputation within IBM as the data lead, data gal. And so I went from being an individual contributor to managing a group of folks, then a team, then a division, then a PNL. It was really, really fun. And then something pivotal in my career happened where in 2011; IBM launched Watson because Watson beat Ken Jennings in Jeopardy!. And it was televised and they said, okay, we're ready to do this. And my boss's boss's boss went over to Watson. And I remember I gracefully begged for four months. I said, you can't do AI without data. And no one knows data ecosystems better than I do. He didn't know that at the time. 

But then I think after about three months on the job, he's like, Sol, you're right. You can't do AI without data. We need you. I was like, great! Hallelujah! So I went over and I remember from 2011 to 2014, my job was to fly around the world, meet with all the early innovators and early adopters of AI for, you know, for enterprise. And I was in LATAM, I was in EMEA, I was in APAC, I was in North America.

And all I did was AI strategies, help them develop use cases, convert those use cases to proof of concepts, and then in a few cases push it to production. And then after about, I don't know, four or five years, I felt like, okay, I'd outgrown this space. I went and I was a partner at Ernst Young, and led their digital innovation practice, and their AI innovation hub, and Royal Caribbean was our first client.

And it was this major, major digital transformation, right? Ernst Young's biggest one. It was probably the market's largest one because everyone was still getting into the space. We're talking 2015, by the way. So I am aging myself and I was the partner overseeing data tech, AI, all of the above. And after about less than a year on the gig, Royal Caribbean approached me and said, Hey, do you want to join our leadership team?

I said as what? They're like, well, you seem to like this data stuff and you know about this AI stuff, you know, the good, the bad, the ugly. I'll never forget this, that Richard, who is the CEO said, you know, when you show up cheerfully resilient every day, this stuff doesn't upset you when things go wrong or haywire. Would you like to join our leadership team? And so that was another pivotal moment. In 2016, I was, as most say, the world's first enterprise chief data and AI officer. That was my official title in my offer letter. And no one in enterprise had either data or AI or officer. So kind of starting the wave title was great.

I had no idea what the job would entail. I thought it was going to just be more of what I was already doing. That was a big fat no and a big fat surprise. I'm sure we'll get into that in a second as well. And then honestly, things just kind of took off from there. I was a CDO for Sony music.

I was a CDAO for Merck Pharmaceuticals. I was the CAO, Chief Analytics Officer, for Estee Lauder, and then mid 2023, I just made this big, bad, hairy, audacious move, and I said, I'm done with enterprise, I need a break. And because ChatGPT had been launched, and I felt that it was a resuscitation, a revival of AI, and I was like, this is really cool, it's a different way of doing this, it's available for direct to consumer.

Because when Watson was launched, it was pure B2B play, and I was like, I need in. And so I gave up the title, I gave up the logo, I gave up the paycheck at the health insurance, and I went out on my own. And I was involved in research, with startups, consulting and advising enterprises, speaking, I wrote a book, which—knock on wood—did really well.

And so like, my world just, my aperture just expanded beyond. It's been a really amazing ride and yeah, fast forward to now. I now work for Amazon, so that's been really fun for the start of division. So here we are. 

Bobby: Yeah, that's what brought us together. It's an amazing journey. So much to unpack there. One thing that jumps out at me is, being the first Chief AI Officer nine years ago, can you believe it? Almost a decade ago, when that happened, do you remember how you thought about, since you were going to be the first, you were going to have to custom-make the role your own, how you defined it and how your initial approach to the role was?

Sol: Yeah, you know, there's a big delta between our views of what the role is going to be and what it actually is. You know, I had the luxury of already working with the company and I knew the stakeholders. I knew the executives, I knew the board. So I thought it was just going to be more of the same, but I would wear their logos, their badges.

I would have an office to badge in, badge out of, but it was very, very different because somehow, and I don't know why, but when you're a consultant, and that's what really is IBM, Ernst Young, I was a management consulting. You know, when they're paying for that service, they value your word a little bit more.

But my running joke was, and my biggest lesson learned was, is as soon as you wear their badge, apparently your IQ drops 50 points because they don't want to listen to you anymore. So I was like, wait, you respected me so much as a partner at a firm. Now that I'm one of you guys, it's like, yeah, let's see what the consultants have to say. I'm like, how does that work? So that was a big realization. I think the second one was, it became less about building really cool things that would provide business value and impact and it became more around internally selling and politics. 

Now this isn't unique to Royal Caribbean. I've learned this in every C-suite position, and I had no idea that it is a lot of maneuvering, adjusting, patience, prudence and just internally selling and aligning so that you could build the one darn thing that you want to build. And it's so obvious to you. It's so clear in my head. And I'm like, the more one on ones I have, the more group meetings I have, the less time I have doing something that I know is fundamentally going to benefit this company.

And there's already a sense of urgency because we're behind. That's why I'm here. Why are we wasting all this time? That was like the second surprise, I would say. And then the third is managing teams and consulting firms is very different than managing teams and enterprise. These lessons learned whether I inherited a team or built a team, but oftentimes I inherited a team in management consulting.

You know, most partners don't have a dedicated team. You have a pool of resources that you pull from that have different specialties and expertise, and, you know, they charge hourly and you have to hit a utilization target. You know, it's one of your metrics, but you get to pick and choose your team.

You get to pull folks that you know are really good and they're going to get the job done. And there's that added pressure of we got to wow the client because our longevity, our monthly recurring revenue, our TNM, everything is based on how well we do. But when you inherit a team with an enterprise, that same level of drive or gumption or mentality isn't there. Oftentimes they've been with the enterprise for 10 to 15 years. Oftentimes they've outgrown their role or they're disgruntled with their role or they're really excited, but really fatigued. So those were the three biggest surprises.

My IQ apparently dropped because no one was listening. I had to do more. I had to learn politics and maneuvering a lot more because I spent more time selling than I did building. And then third, the team dynamics, the team structures, the team decisions were fundamentally different because the talent that you inherited had a very, very different mental model and mindset than the group of consultants I could tap into when I was a partner.

Bobby: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Looking back now and knowing everything, you know, and almost the decade that's passed since those three factors you mentioned, do you think any of those have changed? 

Sol: You know, my father has a great saying: Same sand, different shovel. When you wear the badge of a company, there's a pride that comes with it. But you also realize, and you have to respect the executives and the individuals for the areas and domains that they know very, very well, and they're going to come at it from a completely different angle. And, you know, I'm a practitioner and I was a startup founder, right? Like I had one exit and one, I had to close shop.

Like, I just like to go fast and I like to build and I don't like unnecessary steps. Like if you talk about pet peeves, it's inefficiency. Wait, why are we having this conversation again? Why are 16 people like pinging each other when we could just solve this here and now? Or like, why are we having amnesia?We already made this decision like two weeks ago. 

But it is a lot of that. It is a lot of wrangling. It's a lot of understanding their perspective. It's not about sharing your perspective. And then when you understand their perspective, then you can connect the dots and, you know, showcase what's in it for them and why do they need you?

And that just wasn't a skill that I had developed because I was brought in because they wanted me. Whereas now when you own the badge, you are another spoke in the wheel and you've got to fight for resources and budget and funding, and you got to get along with folks. And sometimes you do, and sometimes you don't.

And that's, that's just the nature of the beast. I think that's part of the reason why I needed the break in 2023. I've been playing that game for a really, really long time, right? Long, longer than most CDOs and CAOs I know combined. I needed that break. 

Bobby: I can believe it, because all the things you're talking about are, you know, the conditions of being a human, basically, and a lot of humans doing something, and it can be incredibly rewarding, but I would imagine at that level, It's also incredibly energy zapping, like it just takes a lot out of you to constantly be navigating that world. 

So one of the things that I've come across in studying your work and hearing your thoughts was this balancing of the art of the possible with the art of the practical. I really, really love that. And so I was wondering if you could think back into your memory banks of an example that jumps out of where these two tensions came together. You had this bold vision that you were super excited about, but you were, you're a realist and you're a pragmatist. You recognize there are going to be some real-world constraints and how you balance them.

Sol: I mean, this, this has occurred within every job I've ever owned or overseen. And it came at the realization of a few whoopsies and mistakes. You know, when you come in, they sell you on what they want this role to be. You know, it's about innovation. It's about having a competitive advantage. It's about building business value. All the great things that we hear and read. 

Then the reality is, when you come in, you're like, oh, we're still on prem here? We don't have CloudOps there? We just migrated our first server farms? When? We don't have a DevOps system? We don't have product managers, but we don't have documentation. Wait, so how do we catalog our taxonomy? The bare basics aren't there.

So we talk about building chatbots. We talk about building agents. We talk about building, you know, what we call it back then, natural language processing on top of a big data ecosystem, and the basics aren't even in place. And so every campaign I've ever run internally, and I call it a campaign because you really are selling internally is, we've got to think big, start small, then we can decide on which one of our investments we scale quickly. And to scale our innovation, we need to master the fundamentals. And so a lot of my grunt work was on putting together, whether it was a data warehouse at the time or data lake ecosystems with cataloging and taxonomies and metadata tagging, like fun stuff that like isn't really fun, but is absolutely needed when you're trying to build these scalable products. 

And so you're flying a plane while you're building it at the same time, but no one really understands why we need taxonomy. No one really understands why we need data cataloging. That's the boring stuff, how we need to figure out developing our semantic layer.

And so you've got to convince them of a space that they don't care about. Nor do they want to know, but connection in their brain of, we need this in order to build the fun stuff that you want for the consumers or for, you know, internal uses. So I always tend to, in the first six months after I get a really good understanding of ground zero, what do we really have in place and how fast can I really move with what we have in place?

That's kind of the art of the practical. I want to support every business executive with everything they do. But. I don't have finite resources, headcount, funding. So within what I have and within the current maturity, here are the things that we could do and I'm limiting us so that we're successful because the last thing I want to be able to do is have so many options and we become essentially jack of all trades and a master of none and then our impact becomes diluted.

So instead of having nine strategic initiatives. I'm going to present nine and I'm going to suggest three, because this is what we could realistically deploy based on our current talent, and they may not be the sexiest stuff, nor are they probably the things that's going to provide the most value.

But what it does is it prepares us for the marathon. We find our gaps. We fill our gaps. We exercise these muscles and we don't, what I call we bend us, but we don't break us. And when we survive these, then we can move on to the bigger things, even though my heart always, always, always wants to build the bigger things.

So that's kind of like, let's think of the big stuff. Cause that's, that's, that's where the end of the journey is ultimately. But I want to finish a marathon. Great. You're not going to finish a marathon, you know, your first week and out. You got to start training. You got to start exercising. You got to build that stamina, endurance. And here's the roadmap to do so. So that's where the art of the practical comes from. 

Bobby: It's like a, it's a roadmap to get through the entire thing without getting stuck in wonderful visions and PowerPoints. 

Sol: Well, that's the thing, right? The last thing I want is vaporware. I've done over 200 POCs specifically within the AI data space. And I would say I had 42 enterprise-grade products go into production. I'm down to 39. I think three got decommissioned in the past year and a half because they upgraded with some of the stuff that's available now. But let's say I have about 39 things that are in production that are enterprise grade, fully secure.

And part of the reason that probably, I would even say that's a high probability. So if you've done over 200 and you've got about a quarter of that, those ones are good. Right now, everyone is struggling pushing POCs to production. Forgive me, my definition is production is different. It is not turning the light on and officially a small group can use it in production. It's when there's full workforce adoption. And I think that's the biggest gap that we're having right now. No one is talking about scaling and adoption. They think pushing to production means alright, now it's a live wire. We've got DevOps. People could use this system. Sixteen people use something you spent 2 million doing.

That's not production for me. That's like you've just got a scalable PR prototype that folks can play with real scale. Real production comes in when the workforce is fundamentally using it and adopting it. 

Bobby: Why do you think there is that gap between, you know, 16 people using a POC and the entire workforce using it?

Sol: I think we jump to strategy, then development, then production. And we fundamentally skip the preparation for state of mind and the workforce benefits of using this. I think that's one reason. Two, I think we take an approach to a product, build and they will come. That's not the case at all.Not in this space. And then the third is, is I think executives think that well, if there is a mandate, then it's going to be leveraged. But what actuality ends up happening is, is we don't decommission the old way of doing it. All those systems and processes are still up. You're not decommissioning email, Slack, Teams workflow, so they're going to keep doing it the way they always have to do the work and management's not going into that level of detail. So you've got two systems in parallel that do the same function. The expectation is, use the quote unquote AI application that we put in place. But everyone still defaults to what they know, and there is a level of management or oversight, nor is there a sunsetting or decommissioning plan.

And so I think we just get lazy. We're so great at the hype and the concept and the design and the strategy, but that same level of energy and rigor and post-launch doesn't go. And I think that's where we have the biggest gaps. 

Bobby: Yeah, the inertia can be difficult to overcome. When I think about the role, the journey of the role as you've been talking about it, it made me think about just how it's interesting in life where if you're early in the career race and a really fantastic sort of career promotion thing happens, you receive it a certain way. But then with the benefit of wisdom and experience and understanding the fuller context of where you fit in, it hits differently, ironically, when you're even more experienced and much more capable than you were when you first started. How do you think about that? 

Sol: I mean, I'm an optimist, but I know I'm being sold a Ferrari and I'm going to get a Honda Civic at best, maybe. So, like, I take things with a grain of salt. And my choices are different now, right? Way back when, it really was about the title, the pay and the kind of work I'm going to be doing. Now it's more about the people I'm going to be working with. It's just very different because every job is going to be difficult, no matter how glamorous it is, no matter what title you get. When you're brought into these roles, you have to operate as a change agent. You have to operate as a transformational agent. 

That is not for the weak hearted. You know, I have this saying within my team, and I've been saying this for a decade and a half. I even heard a rabbi say it like three years ago on YouTube and someone's like, he's taking your quote. I don't know if it's my quote. It's like, but you've been saying this since 2012. There is a massive difference in the way you have to show up and the energy you’ve got to bring to the table if you were a thermometer versus a thermostat. 

A thermometer takes the temperature, reads the room. I'm not saying it's a passive role. I'm saying that your job is to tap into your EQ and understand where folks are coming from. And that's a very key role. 

When you're a thermostat, your job is to change the temperature in the room. The level of energy that that takes is immense. Because you've got to fundamentally take the current state of mind and elevate it.

And that means not only do you have to tap into your EQ and get to know what everyone wants, you have to tap into your SQ, your social quotient. Everyone's got to like working with you. You've got to tap into your IQ. You've got to know what the heck you're doing. Right? And then you've got to tap into your EQ. You've got to learn their language so when you're trying to convince them, they understand why because you've learned their business. And so raising the temperature of the room, changing the temperature of the room. Both roles are fundamentally needed, but the level of energy and inertia and the way you show up when you have to change a temperature room is a completely different ballgame.

And so it's hard. It's really, really hard, but everything becomes much, much easier when you enjoy working with the people that you're around. That's a different ballgame. So, yeah, I do a lot of expectation tempering. For me now, it's not about the job itself per se or the pay or the title. Yeah, that stuff matters, but it's not one, two or three anymore. Number 1 is who am I going to work with, and am I going to learn from them? 

Bobby: Yeah, the people aspect of it is just, you know, immense in terms of producing joy. Which leads me to another thought, which is culture, this oft used word, super powerful and accompanies destiny.

You've had the privilege of working with some of the biggest brands in the world in very, very senior positions. And I'm just going to stick with the company sort of post the consulting life, because they're a slightly different type of company. Right. But I'm just really curious. I'll just randomly pick two and don't worry, I'll skip AWS since I know you're currently there. 

So it's easier to talk about previous journeys, but if you were to compare and contrast the culture of Estee Lauder to Sony Music. They're both big companies. They're both world-beating brands, but they're different. Surely they're different. 

Sol: Totally. And like, let's add Merck in there to spice it up a bit too.

Bobby: Okay. Yeah, great. 

Sol: Sony Music. Entertainment. Music. Chaos. Fun. Creative. Instinctual. Go with the gut. Right? It's about relationships. They could give two shits about data and analytics, but they needed it because the industry was fundamentally changing and they got their first whiplash with Napster. They got their second whiplash with Spotify.

And so they knew that they fundamentally needed to change their approach towards things and they needed to be more assertive around their marketing. Around their A&R tactics and, and getting the best and the brightest talent in terms of knowing what works and well, what powers all that knowledge, what powers knowledge, data and analytics and digital capabilities. But you've got a lot of seasoned individuals who rely on instinct and experience.

So that was a lot of selling, but it was an environment I felt very comfortable in. Because it was a creative environment. It wasn't stuffy at all. And it was amazing. Now imagine, Sony Music to Merck Pharmaceuticals. You go from a company that's under 10 billion to a company that's nearly 50 billion in the drug race.

What's interesting about pharmaceuticals that I had absolutely no idea that really influenced the role is the margin is based on the molecule. So the aggressiveness, the assertiveness that other companies may feel, pharmas are somewhat insulated. Depending on the molecule or the drug that they have a patent, right?

Like, so, if they've got an amazing drug, let's use Viagra as an example, an accidental drug that was discovered, right? They cornered that market, and they had a patent, and no one could create even a generic version of it for a really, really long time. So the margin is based on the molecule. You create something, and you discover something amazing, you own it for 20 years.

That level of urgency, it's different. Now the scale is massive. So it's very steady, thoughtful, prudent. Backwards is the wrong word. It's just not up to date, right? Like even if you walk into a Sony Music office versus a Merck Pharmaceuticals office, it was like beanies and ripped jeans and like piercings. And then it was like Dockers and, you know, it's different. It was different. And most folks I knew had been there 20 plus years. They still offer pensions at pharmaceuticals. Well, if you're offering a pension, essentially you're rewarding loyalty. So people do enough to do great, but not too much where they're going to risk that. So a very different mindset. It's all about being consistent and steady. 

And then you've got a company like Estee Lauder. You know, and it's still somewhat family run and family owned and I reported into a Lauder. Now you're talking about these big, massive global brands and there was such pride when I joined the company and you realize all the different strategies and marketing tactics and it's complicated business.From supply chain, inventory management, to new product launches, to marketing, to operating in multiple countries. And gee, like, it was such a different culture than Merck as I outlined and Sony that I outlined. And you're like, you're trying to get your, your solid footing in either or, right? And it takes adjustment.

Anytime I come into a new company, usually the first nine months I'm like, Oh crap, shouldn't have done that. Or, okay, no, this is fine. And then after about a year or so, you get your footing. But they couldn't be more different. And I had the same job across all three, data analytics and fun AI products.

Bobby: So massive learnings on each time that you had to join to make those work. 

Sol: Oh, and the ways I had to convince folks. The investments I had to make, the processes to get funding unlocked, or to even request, are completely different. The op stuff is so operationally burdensome, and you have to learn their processes. They're not going to adapt to your processes. So how I manage CapEx and OpEx at Sony is not how I manage CapEx and OpEx at Merck, which is not how I manage CapEx and OpEx at Estee Lauder. Sometimes the definitions are different. Sometimes everything's in Excel spreadsheets. Sometimes it's systems and quarterly processes. Sometimes someone else owns your budget, even though you got approval for the budget and they have to unlock it, which makes no freaking sense.

So yeah, they couldn't be more different. It's fine if you're in the job for like six years, but me and you change every few years because you're there to do something and then move on to the next and create change, then do something and then move on.

My family pays the price the first year. No doubt. 

Bobby: So sticking with the human element, something you've talked about is intellectual atrophy. And this is something, when it comes to AI, this is something I think about a lot because, you know, at once you're dealing with incredibly powerful tools, and then as you start using them, you almost have to catch yourself. Like it's almost too easy. And am I going to stop using the important part of my brain? 

So the thing I wanted to kind of get your thoughts on is how could one advise an organization to make sure that, you know, the human element stays front and center, and that we don't all start universally to atrophy and end up being characters on Wall-E or something.

Sol: You have no idea how much I appreciate that question. You and I did not rehearse this whatsoever, because if you talk about, if you take my role as a mother, an employee, a sister, a wife and a daughter aside, my personal mission and my personal passion right now falls in sort of two things. One is around workforce readiness with the age of AI. This is not the metaverse. This is not web 3.0. This is not blocking. This is not using QR codes to pay your parking meter, right? Like, Ooh, tech fun. This is not the vacuum. This is not the refrigerator. This will fundamentally have an impact on the workforce in the future and how we're expected to operate and work with these unbelievable capabilities.

So workforce readiness is a passion area and project of mine because we just don't do enough of it. Bobby, you had asked an earlier question that was really pertinent of like, Pushing something to production isn't turning the light switch on and having DevOps run with it. Pushing something into production is around scale and scale through adoption.And the adoption comes from the workforce, and we just aren't doing enough of the workforce readiness. So a lot of the stuff that I'm writing about now, whether it's on LinkedIn or whether it's on Forbes, because I'm a contributor for them, is really focused on workforce readiness. Because the two are converging.And right now, it's human workforce plus AI. There's going to be a point in time in the next few years where it's going to be proportional between a human workforce and a digital workforce. And I anticipate that in four to five plus years, it's going to be more of a digital workforce supplemented by humans.

And we're not looking at that spectrum yet, but I've seen it because I've done these, I've built the products, pushed it to production. And I started back in 2011 and the ones that have made it, I've seen how it's changed the functions and the roles of individuals. So that's the first area, workforce readiness.

The second, which sounds kind of funny, you're absolutely right. And I have coined it as probably trademark that thing, intellectual atrophy, because the more we rely on technology, the less we tend to lean on our common sense, critical thinking, and our intuition and instincts. They become sanitized when we lean on other things to make the decisions for us.

I've got two children who are seven and nine, and my son will come out and say something, and I'm like, where the heck did you get that from? Well, the internet. Like, okay. And I'm like, it doesn't stop there. Have you looked at the source? Is the source credible? Is that what that source studies and learns? Is that their vocation? Because everyone can have an opinion on the internet; an opinion doesn't make it a fact. 

And so I'm teaching them discernment now, because they just automatically say, well, if it's stated somewhere, it must be true. And that's not the case. So I can see that they're not developing their muscles. Or like, even in writing, you know, Chachabitty, perplexity, cortex, like there's six or seven tools that I can lean on. But I noticed that when I started writing for Forbes, I had a tendency of going to these things to short-circuit the writing process. And it made me stop thinking about the story I was telling and the narrative I wanted to get across the table. And so I was seeing what it was producing. I was like, yeah, yeah, this is good enough.

I was like, wait a minute. No, this is basic. This is very carrot. This is vanilla. I'm like, it's not getting my story across. It's not getting my perspective. So now I have to discipline myself intentionally to not use, you know, these tools that are available to me when I write for Forbes drowning out and diluting the intent of why I'm writing this.

And quite frankly, like the storytelling ability, if you're not used to that or using it, you lose it. So it's very classic. Use it, don't lose it. Don't use it, you're going to lose it. And it's very similar to muscular atrophy. You know, if anyone's ever broken a bone or has been bedridden, your muscles atrophy very quickly because you're not using them.

Our brain is, our brain is one big, massive muscle. The same applies. And I don't think we're thinking about that just yet. 

Bobby: Yeah. I do think it's one of the biggest dangers with AI. So you wrote this article. I love the title. “Going rogue” speaks to my heart where you highlight the need for bold, adaptable leadership.

Was there a leadership moment you can point to where going rogue made all the difference? 

Sol: I could always take the safe route. And the safe route is to avoid the difficult conversations, not be confrontational about certain topics that need to be discussed. Not being honest about the role and why they may have brought me in.

And the reason why I said “gone rogue” or the rogue executive is because the rogue executive fundamentally doesn't play by the rule book, meaning it's not that you're breaking the rules. It's that they brought you in because they fundamentally needed to make a shift. They needed to make a seismic adjustment.And the only way they can do that is if they brought someone in who doesn't think like everyone else. That's been assimilated to the existing culture. Now there's a learning curve associated with that. You don't want to break everything, but you want to respect what's in place. You want to flex to the style while still maintaining the autonomy to do what's right for the company and all the reasons that they brought you in.

And it takes a lot of chutzpah to stand your ground. And it may mean that, Hey, guess what? I may not have that badge for 10 years. I'm okay with that because they didn't bring me in to assimilate and acclimate or do more of the same. They brought me in because they either had false starts in the past or they were really serious about this investment.

And I know within the first year if they are or they aren't like, it's so easy to spot. And so I'm going to stay true to that because in the interview process, there's that discussion of, you know, If you want someone to support and maintain this, that's not me. If you want someone who's going to be very steady and patient and prudent, that won't be me either.

But if you need someone who's going to be thoughtful, who's going to understand the culture, but still push back where needed to create change, to create sustainability and longevity and a competitive advantage, I'm your gal. And that's what they bring me on for. But sometimes you have to remind them that four months in nine months in a year and a half. So the repetitions are super powerful. And so you have to go rogue because if your incentive is to have a steady job for 20 years, going rogue is not a good idea, but purpose. And you know, this is a founder, you know, like if it's about making impact and that aha moment and the wow, you have to be bold and you have to go against the grain and people are going to push back.

You just have to go rogue a bit. But that's the fun part, I think. It sure as heck makes things spicy and fun, but people aren't ready for it. It's considered challenging or confrontational or uncomfortable because it's a threat. You have to respect and appreciate that too.

Bobby: Well, I would feel a great success if people heard you on this podcast, and if there was only one thing that came out of it, that there was a bit more rogueness in how they try to make something happen in their respective organizations. I think that'd be a good thing.

Sol: I think that would be a great thing.

And, you know, I respect the position you're in, Bobby, because being an entrepreneur and founder is tough. It's hard. You know, like it's not a good day or bad day. It's like, was it a good minute or a bad minute? It takes a certain temperament. But what I'm noticing is that you've got those of us who still have zest and vibrancy. It's not the easy route, but we stand up for what we believe in. And I think there are other individuals who are still trying to figure out how to stand up for what they believe in. And sometimes they succumb or they surrender and they give a piece of themselves as an exchange. And like, I don't see the vibrancy in them, they're not living their full life, if you will.

And it hurts me. It hurts me to see it because I can see it in their eyes. I can see the way they show up. And I hope everyone at some point in time finds their road in this. It's a good thing. 

Bobby: Well, I feel like I can talk to you for hours more, but sadly, I think we're almost at our time. So kind of the last thing I'd like to do is kind of hand the mic back to you. And for people listening who I'm sure really enjoyed this, if they wanted to learn more about you, about your thought leadership in AI, what would be a good place to find you? 

Sol: I appreciate that. I do have a Substack newsletter. So that's, you know, substack. Solrashidi.com. I do have a website. A lot of the stuff is there. That's a really, really easy one. And I'm very, very active on LinkedIn. You know, it's funny. It's like, I don't know, I work 60, 80 hours a week, but the weekends. From 4 to 6 a. m. Like, every weekend, doesn't matter what time I've gone to sleep the night before, that is when I do my best writing. And so I've disciplined myself and so that's when I write and that's when I schedule everything. But LinkedIn is also a very, very big platform for me as well. So, LinkedIn, Substack, or my website, SolRashidi.com. And the book, which has done very well, Top 100 AI Books in 2024, yay!

That is called Your AI Survival Guide. Scraped Knees, Bruised Elbows, and Lessons Learned. And I get into some of the grittiest things of what I've learned in pushing these things to production. 

Bobby: Amazing. Sol, this has been just an absolute pleasure. Thanks so very much. 

Sol: Thank you, Bobby. This was fun. I really appreciate the invite.

Bobby: That was Sol Rashidi, a pioneering Chief AI and Data Officer and a bold thinker who has shaped AI strategy at some of the world’s most recognizable brands. I really enjoyed our conversation, and I hope you did too. Feel free to rate us on whatever podcast platform you listen on—we really appreciate the feedback. Until next time, I’m Bobby Mukherjee, and as always, I wanna know: What Fascinates You?